USB Extender over Ethernet vs. Active USB cable

Mr Rob A, can you pull through any more audio cables? If so you could try Star Quad? Much is made of SQs interference busting ability but it only really works for very close couplings. Like yours! Another possibility is CAT6 cable for audio pair. As I an sure you know this has individually screened pairs plus an overall screen and maybe don't ground them both to the same point? OR! You have "ground loop zipper noise"? Try dissing screens one end or/and fitting heavy earth wires "Parallel Multiple Earths" ?

Mr OP. I dabbled with these things some years ago. I found mice and keyboards could be extended almost ad inf' using nothing more special than 4core telephone extension cable and DIN plugs. I also ran raw MIDI data from a controller to a DIN on an AI using CAT 5E pair. The limit for MIDI will I guess be how well the source can charge the cable capacitance so as to keep sharp pulses? (anyone know of a cheap 'pulse restorer as is used for vid sync?)

Audio interfaces are fussy about the length of the USB cable. Native Instruments supplied a 3m cable with my KA6 and said that was the maximum that should be used. I bought two different brands of 5m A-B cables and one worked fine and with the other the interface would never establish a lock. I have not tried any of the active extenders.

Some deep thought might give a solution? Keep the AI close handy but you can extend mic an line cables to any reasonable degree. CPC/Farnell do a range of "CAT" boxes for extending all sorts of things over ethernet cable. N.B. some sources, HDMI IIRC, need TWO CAT 5e or better cables. Fortunately CAT cable is cheap as chips.

And yes, it might be cheaper overall to make the PC quieter?


Dave.
 
sumitsimlai said:
Did you check out this video? Doctored? True? Can’t really say.
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Had a moment and watched the video. This is essentially what I have been recommending and what I use for long lengths. The picture of the rack I posted is the machine room for a recent install. In the rack are 8 Mac Mini's. I am using Fiber Thunderbolt cables that are 82ft long to the control room into CalDigit docks. These are $409 each at B&H. The Brand is Optical Cables by Corning. The advantage to these is the computer just sees it as a cable and not a hub device. It uses a small amount of power from the USB port to power a chip that converts the USB serial data to light and back to data at the other end. Out of everything I've used over the years, these have been the most reliable in installs that are powered on 24/7.

In this video, he is using USB 3.0 cables but note, all the devices he tested are 2.0 except maybe the capture (not familiar)

The bandwidth for USB 3.0 is a lot higher than 2.0 but if you plug it into a USB 2.0 port it works, you just don't gain any additional speed. It just reverts to USB 2.0 speeds.

I'm getting called to supper. I'll post a deep dive into USB after when I get a minute.
 
jimmys69 said:
I don't believe its the noise from his 4 pc's. It's lack of space for them in his room.
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Ok well I read it as a bit of both? I would like to say also that there are very few audio interfaces as yet that really need USB 3 bandwidth (some 'bus' powered jobs might need the extra 400mA DC but that is easily kludged) so for the most part we are only talking of extending USB 2.0.

There are AIs that can be totally controlled by MIDI or a browser type system (over USB!), RME come to mind. Such an AI could therefore sit next to the PC and be controlled remotely. Has the OP fixed on an AI as yet? As I said, extending audio is a doddle, 100years old technology.

Dave.
 
I got grumpy. I swapped a pc for an imac. This one was not used for music but was in the studio for spotify and youtube really. So i figured the new mac mini was silent, so could go back in the studio too. I forgot the male female connector thing, so ended up pulling loads of stuff out. The mac mini now connects to the interface in the rack built into the wall via two usb cables. A normal 5m one extended with a 2m extension. Not the active ones which ive got stuck in the other duct. The lumpy connectors went in, but jammed! The 7m one works perfectly. I need a usb c to usb a hub though, run out of high speed ins and outs for drives. No noise, no interference, BUT when i plugged in the cable that went to the behringher 1820, it brushed the mac case and in the dim light, there was a spark! I touched the usb delicately to the back of my hand and there was a tingle. Traced to a roland 1080, unused, off, but connected. Not mains voltage, but enough current to spark, and i bet it was the cause of the hum and weird noises. They're gone now, but im guessing this was where the noise was coming from. A few volts, some current, and the usb not being happy inside the computer, and with all the hubs and drives, and easy path for the noise. Now its all rearranged, i’ll never know.
 
ecc83 said:
Ok well I read it as a bit of both? I would like to say also that there are very few audio interfaces as yet that really need USB 3 bandwidth (some 'bus' powered jobs might need the extra 400mA DC but that is easily kludged) so for the most part we are only talking of extending USB 2.0.

There are AIs that can be totally controlled by MIDI or a browser type system (over USB!), RME come to mind. Such an AI could therefore sit next to the PC and be controlled remotely. Has the OP fixed on an AI as yet? As I said, extending audio is a doddle, 100years old technology.

Dave.
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AI?
 
ecc83 said:
Ok well I read it as a bit of both? I would like to say also that there are very few audio interfaces as yet that really need USB 3 bandwidth (some 'bus' powered jobs might need the extra 400mA DC but that is easily kludged) so for the most part we are only talking of extending USB 2.0.

There are AIs that can be totally controlled by MIDI or a browser type system (over USB!), RME come to mind. Such an AI could therefore sit next to the PC and be controlled remotely. Has the OP fixed on an AI as yet? As I said, extending audio is a doddle, 100years old technology.

Dave.
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for the OP, AI = Audio Interface. And Dave, he already has the interfaces. He listed them somewhere in a post above.

I will say, I really despise USB. Especially in a professional setting. I have been hoping for a better selection of Dante interfaces so I can complete my studio upgrade. I'd rather avoid USB as the audio connection. I believe the issue preventing adoption is the requirement for yearly Dante licesnsure.

In my commercial designs, I can build very complex Dante and Video over IP systems where everything is networked but because of the use of Soft Codecs, the connectivity to the PC is USB. On basic commercial Teams rooms systems, it is all USB. USB is a major failure point as it lacks stability in applications that are on 24/7 and with PC's that hibernate. Extenders makes the situations worse. Though a necessity in commercial installations, devices like cameras will freeze and lose connectivity. It is common to require larger client's IT groups to schedule PC reboots at regular intervals.
 
Very well said.

There’s a product called iConnect MIDI 4+ which though at its core of a MIDI interface, it has features of audio pass through, multi computer connectivity and network connectivity.

Anyone any idea what it actually does and whether it can help my situation? I think I read that fo4 computers can recognise it as an audio interface at once, but what it can do, is not understood by me. For example, will it help in my configuration where my main DAW is separate from the instruments which are loaded on to three other computers? Will they all work in sequence?

Anyone with experience with this device?
 
sumitsimlai said:
Very well said.

There’s a product called iConnect MIDI 4+ which though at its core of a MIDI interface, it has features of audio pass through, multi computer connectivity and network connectivity.

Anyone any idea what it actually does and whether it can help my situation? I think I read that fo4 computers can recognise it as an audio interface at once, but what it can do, is not understood by me. For example, will it help in my configuration where my main DAW is separate from the instruments which are loaded on to three other computers? Will they all work in sequence?

Anyone with experience with this device?
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No experience with the device but I looked at the product page. It is discontinued and has been replaced by mioXM. In the past I've used MOTU for midi interfaces. On the discontinued and current model, there is no audio. This is a Midi only device.

It's RTP Midi which I've worked with Browser based Midi which is essentially network Midi. I currently only have one device with old school 5 pin Midi and if I want to use it, I plug it directly into my interface.

Looks to be a handy device if you have a lot of old Midi devices with a mix of USB contrrollers. But that is just going by the product page. I'm just returning to Midi but only from a controller perspective. So I'm not going to by your Midi go to person.
 
Here is a bit of an explanation of USB functionality.

This is a graphic of the I/O of the chip set and CPU on a PC. Note the USB section where the term "Up To" is used. The motherboard has a USB controller that manages USB data between devices and the chip set and the chip set manages data traffic to the CPU. The USB controller buss to the chip set has finite bandwidth. So it is common to see a certain number of high speed USB and a few lesser. The combination adds up to the maximum bandwidth the USB controller can process. On the OP's Asus motherboard, there is a variety of ports with different speeds. The total of bandwidth of these ports is the max the USB controller can handle.

Screen Shot 04-20-24 at 08.50 PM.PNGScreen Shot 04-21-24 at 06.55 PM.PNG

USB 3.2 Gen 2 has a speed of 20Gbps. Certainly this would be enough bandwidth to handle putting everything on one line, right? Not so fast. Here is the thing about serial data communication.

Serial communicates data on one single line, one transmit, and one receive. USB 2.0 is a Host-Device standard. A device doesn't transmit data unless the host tells it to transmit. For instance, the host computer will poll a standard PC mouse about every 8 milliseconds for location status. Even shorter duration of polling if it is a gaming mouse. The PC asks the mouse "what is your position" and the mouse replies. Same for keyboard. USB Midi also works the same way. It is counter intuitive. We all think that when we press a key, we are sending the command but it is the USB controller polling at high speed for changes in state. It just happens so fast, we don't usually take note of it.

So what happens with devices that have a continuous stream like an audio interface? Well, that is what buffers are for. Most DAW users are familiar with buffer settings. So if you place the audio interface, keyboard and mouse and a whole bunch of Midi devices all on one USB line, the controller is polling multiple devices on one line but can only do it one at a time. If you separate these sources, the USB controller can poll as many devices at once as you have physical connections. So you are not adding interrupts to the audio stream traffic if you keep the interface on its own port. Put too much traffic on one Hub and you increase the need for buffer size. Too much and even the buffer won't compensate enough. Some interfaces are also just picky and it doesn't take much to break the connection.
 
Thank you for that insight Folkcafe. I have read much about "USB" over the years and in particular its possible failings for audio use. AFAIKT the "rot stopped" when RME got involved with PFGAs and their own drivers (for PCs) They produced a multitrack AI that worked AS well on USB 2.0 as it did on Firewire*, the latter at the time being touted as "the only way to go" for external interfaces of any substance. Other firms such as MOTU soon caught up (well, almost!) and now it is rare for a modern interface to give very much trouble to the home recording bod. ... I can OF COURSE see that in the exotic world that you inhabit, USB is not as reliable as you need and wish it to be!

Re "minimizing problems". It has long been the advice in forums that AIs should have a USB port to themselves. Many PCs use ports in pairs and I have always assumed that the bandwidth is 'split' between them? I therefore only use one of a pair for an AI and put nothing in the other.
Also been the case that you never run an AI from any kind of hub. Not even one with extra power.
For a long time we were also always told to use the same USB port that an AI was initially setup with all the time? This problem seems to have been licked however (if it was ever thus?) because I can plug my NI KA6 into any port on any of 4 PC/Laptop combinations and it just bloody goes! Same applies to my MOTU M4.

What us audio folks want really is some of the technology we see in 'CSI' type programmes? In TV police drama computers never crash (unless a plot device) they work at light speed and can communicate instantly with any other PC system on the planet. Their smart phones are also wonderfully fast and reliable as well!

*But at least USB interfaces were not. AFAIK. fussy about the brand of on board controller!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Thank you for that insight Folkcafe. I have read much about "USB" over the years and in particular its possible failings for audio use. AFAIKT the "rot stopped" when RME got involved with PFGAs and their own drivers (for PCs) They produced a multitrack AI that worked AS well on USB 2.0 as it did on Firewire*, the latter at the time being touted as "the only way to go" for external interfaces of any substance. Other firms such as MOTU soon caught up (well, almost!) and now it is rare for a modern interface to give very much trouble to the home recording bod. ... I can OF COURSE see that in the exotic world that you inhabit, USB is not as reliable as you need and wish it to be!

Re "minimizing problems". It has long been the advice in forums that AIs should have a USB port to themselves. Many PCs use ports in pairs and I have always assumed that the bandwidth is 'split' between them? I therefore only use one of a pair for an AI and put nothing in the other.
Also been the case that you never run an AI from any kind of hub. Not even one with extra power.
For a long time we were also always told to use the same USB port that an AI was initially setup with all the time? This problem seems to have been licked however (if it was ever thus?) because I can plug my NI KA6 into any port on any of 4 PC/Laptop combinations and it just bloody goes! Same applies to my MOTU M4.

What us audio folks want really is some of the technology we see in 'CSI' type programmes? In TV police drama computers never crash (unless a plot device) they work at light speed and can communicate instantly with any other PC system on the planet. Their smart phones are also wonderfully fast and reliable as well!

*But at least USB interfaces were not. AFAIK. fussy about the brand of on board controller!

Dave.
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The thing about USB is that it typically just works, until it doesn't. In the world where clients buy tech support contracts, USB is a big part of the support calls these days.

And yes, I do remember the days of old where certain cards wouldn't work with particular chip sets and you had to be mindful of which slot you put the interface carx and set interrupt priorities in the bios. Even on the Mac side with Nubus Power PC workstations. Everything ran on the bleeding edge and systems like Avid Media Composer required just the right hardware combination and even still extensions would get corrupt and things would stop working.
 
Gentlemen

Good morning (India Time) to all.

Sorry I have been busy organising / reorganising my "studio" past few days, but honestly I am not reall getting anywhere close to a good setup, given the restricted space. However, I have been able to place mMy PC rack next to me desk, with top entry fans blowing my mind away. I will try posting a photo, though the top is not yet ready (full of electronics muck). Finally it boils down to two external audio interfaces that require USB connection direct to the PC. Then there are the ADAT Pre's and since these are to be digitally connected, they too need to be close by (though I read somewhere ADAT lightpipe can be as long as 5 m??). To be safe though, I have planned a 6U 19" rack to be sat on top of the PC cabinet (weird I know), since the top cable entry to the cabinet will help to route the short USB cables. The lightpipes then also don't need to be too long.

While on my so called research, I came across a guy in a forum who mentioned that though his MIDI control surface works nicely with USB hubs, whenever he needs to update drivers, the system doesn't recognise the device and just for that purpose he has to disconnect and connect directly to the PC.

Another thing I read is the selection of the right USB hub which is a tricky affair. Some work flawlessly, some work intermittently, and some just fail to work for data transfer.

As regards connecting MIDI keyvboards to the computer, that video you sent was good enough for a fair understanding.
 

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Ive come across a problem with my reversed system. Every few seconds i get a feint crack through the audio, like a capacitor sparking. Very annoying and i cant find out which bit of kit is doing it.
 
sumitsimlai said:
Gentlemen

Good morning (India Time) to all.

Sorry I have been busy organising / reorganising my "studio" past few days, but honestly I am not reall getting anywhere close to a good setup, given the restricted space. However, I have been able to place mMy PC rack next to me desk, with top entry fans blowing my mind away. I will try posting a photo, though the top is not yet ready (full of electronics muck). Finally it boils down to two external audio interfaces that require USB connection direct to the PC. Then there are the ADAT Pre's and since these are to be digitally connected, they too need to be close by (though I read somewhere ADAT lightpipe can be as long as 5 m??). To be safe though, I have planned a 6U 19" rack to be sat on top of the PC cabinet (weird I know), since the top cable entry to the cabinet will help to route the short USB cables. The lightpipes then also don't need to be too long.

While on my so called research, I came across a guy in a forum who mentioned that though his MIDI control surface works nicely with USB hubs, whenever he needs to update drivers, the system doesn't recognise the device and just for that purpose he has to disconnect and connect directly to the PC.

Another thing I read is the selection of the right USB hub which is a tricky affair. Some work flawlessly, some work intermittently, and some just fail to work for data transfer.

As regards connecting MIDI keyvboards to the computer, that video you sent was good enough for a fair understanding.
Click to expand...
Attaching a photo of the previous rough layout. The PC cabinet is on the rightmost. The rackmounted interface devices are on extreme left, just next to the left speaker. So the problem was to connect the interfaces to the PC cabinet on the right.

Forgot to mention that thr PC cabinet has 4 large fans on top.
 
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rob aylestone said:
I did exactly this - USB active extender cable, with a small USB hub at the monitor end in the studio - I also had an HDMI pair of cables under the floor too - just long enough. Mice, keyboards and the empty USB socket for sticks or random USB devices work fine. Monitors mostly work, but occasionally the mac loses the monitor - or worse, half loses it so one of the two monitors comes on, goes off, comes on and the mac spends it's time trying to keep the screen displays working properly. There's no real thing that sets it off - swapping monitors did nothing - so maybe a slow starting cable issue? The USB is stable - one of those with the larger USB connectors on the ends with the electronics inside - Amazon sourced. The bad news is that the audio cables are also in the same under floor duct and the interface, computer end, often picks up the mouse movement, or even the changes in screen display going from say black to white, or when the mouse cursor moves around - the usual data sawtoothy zippy noise. Clearly it's leakage from one to the other in the closely packed duct - but how it's getting into the amp is a mystery - so far. If I was to do it again - I would have two ducts - one for audio, one for data and keep them as spaced as I can. Disconnecting the mouse silences it, but of course it drops the driver, so it could be coupling at the computer end. With hindsight, I should have assembled and tested the cables before pulling them into the duct - it could be the USB cable, with the electronics spreading the interference, I just don't know. I now have a silent studio with no fan noise, but a noisy mouse and monitors.
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I reread the whole thing again. What do you mean by active USB extender? What I mean by USB extender is via CAT-5e/6 cable connecting a transmitter to a receiver.
 
rob aylestone said:
This kind of thing
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fuworance-Repeater-Extension-Amplifier-Computer/dp/B0CQPDGX9Y/ref=sr_1_5?crid=BSBMPIWWWZJJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.o4qjS2X4PYyLqqpqd5VGWaOAi-GRl2hLrsvMfvpGLxO3iPyD8_52ovRmztCCZjw0mozSPbCSrOUfKrFF8h_dOo_KkuyD2jXw1BtcD6LcBcHXsKM9gG2NxOIfJ7oauBuQizOYcC6kAlAWd2hIPvQ5Mf-ZDe8fV1QVGYWf3dGOpGHUI53hUQGjNRTU5tPQCaQvFZ_hrpholW_lvVOCIWY1Z-sXlkzDuyCXgpsDaGBxjr8.55ROFsmWgIsmgdNqlsWb2nWkzSqcR1NC9erYNhzURt4&dib_tag=se&keywords=usb+active+repeater+cable&qid=1714126620&sprefix=usb+active+,aps,83&sr=8-5

rather than this kind of thing over cat5
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extender-165ft-4-Port-Ethernet-Cat5e/dp/B07VN3FBW3/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=20DPSKV6RVHEA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ARWy0jqenjjMbcI3DnwgYtldZQjR1qWlJR0beCZ9xDrBrF1nvNhN89uouUHSyU5MGyiGjAecNufeAc47ISPUnut7it2Y84tM-0rkvDERT25bAcBwAPXjJv94CcMLVm1bhyxvT0315VTt9BYf5wDsZdd8vf8fyIX-3231-ntilfcT6nW4cQY4nSa1VaHTewDEYFNfBhY3_SWGBw4zRukW1dsnYxDg5OxJ0JsKVZmV2x8.7U0etJIPr1ZcRPkAcIScWG03XFNPg1jtPglnB84ijwc&dib_tag=se&keywords=usb+extender+cat5&qid=1714126691&sprefix=usb+extender+of+cat,aps,88&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
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So would you say that perhaps this type of thing might work better? https://go.skimresources.com/?id=24...ea8aa97bd6&xjsf=other_click__contextmenu [-1]
 
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